# 4671 - Model 1917 Eddystone Enfield
5/29/02
Will, Herford Arizona

Left side of stock "SAA" and "3 GM-R" Barrel stamped "5-18" and import marked ("P14 CAI") Let me begin by saying how helpful I find your web site. Usually my first stop when I get on the 'Net. Pls accept my sincere thanks. I've been wanting to add a 1917 to my collection for quite some time. As funds are scare, I must limit myself to a single specimen. Consequently, I've been looking for a good, honest example. Am considering obtaining one identified below. It seems to be in good shape, about 80% finish, all parts "E" marked (less rear sight marked "R"), "good" bore and stock marked "SAA" and "3 GM-R". Now my questions. What do the markings on the stock indicate? I've heard that some "low serial" numbered Eddystones are unsafe to shoot; does this one fall into that range? The importer marked "P14" on the barrel, what does this suggest? I assume imported examples are less valuable; is this true? Many thanks. . .

Answer:
Will- Glad you like our site, even though you want our free advice to help you decide on a purchase of an item from another source. That's okay, we want you to become a dedicated collector and return here often to help build your collection, although admittedly we like it better when you buy our stuff. Since collector items are wherever you can find them, not just ordered up in huge quantities from the manufacturer, it is indeed worthwhile to shop around to see what you can find, and how prices compare, if you have the time and inclination to do so. However, there is the risk that you may end up dealing with unprincipled scoundrels, ignoramuses, and assorted other low life riff-raff peddling junk, along with many other friendly, knowledgeable, and reputable folks like us who sell great stuff (and also some junque, but clearly described as such). Your money, your choice. We do appreciate the business and support of those who wisely decide to join our customer ranks.

Anyway, this rifle you are considering--- Collectors due tend to look down on "import marked" guns (and value them accordingly) however that attitude seems to be softening somewhat, especially for the low end items which appeal as much for their shooting quality as their historical significance. Century Arms International (CAI) apparently used the generic P14 model designation, or whoever did the stamping just plain screwed up, as I think they are also found more correctly marked M1917, but that is not a big deal one way or the other. The stock markings indicate overhaul or inspection at U.S. arsenals, probably after WW1 or during WW2. SAA indicates San Antonio Arsenal, and is usually followed by another letter indicating the inspector. The 3-GM-K marking is unidentified, but has been noted mainly on M1917s and very rarely on M1903A3s or other U.S. arms. There is no known problem with "low number" Eddystone rifles. However, there have been cases of a few Eddystones which suffered cracked receivers, apparently during the overhaul process. The bearing surface between the face of the M1917 receiver and the rear of the barrel is much larger than on the M1903, and it takes a HUGE amount of force to break the old barrel loose, and to seat the new one. I have never seen one, but this has been reported in reliable sources, so they must exist, but not in such numbers as to be a real worry. (Have any gun you intend to shoot checked by a competent gunsmith prior to firing.) While you note that only the rear sight appears to be marked R or W instead of E, that alone should be an indication that other parts are also likely to be mismatched. Nothing wrong with such parts mixes as a result of overhauls, but totally matched rifles will bring a premium, as will rifles with original blue finish instead of a parkerize refinish. Hope you find one you like, if not here, then somewhere else. John Spangler

# 4889 - Krag Bayonet
5/29/02
Joe

I have a Krag bayonet that is marked 1903 on one side and stamped U S on the other. I also have a 1903 Springfield Rifle that the Krag bayonet appears to fit on. The fit is very snug. My question is, was the 03 Springfield Rifle and MI Garand designed to allow the Krag Bayonet to fit?

Answer:
Joe- I am not certain if the answer is just a flat no, or perhaps a maybe. But, the Krag bayonet will indeed fit on the M1903 and M1 rifles. The M1 was designed to take the then standard Model 1905 bayonet which had been used with the M1903 Springfields. Remember, the original M1903 Springfields had a rod bayonet, which President Teddy Roosevelt called "useless" in a letter to the Army. The Army promptly modified the M1903 rifles for a knife bayonet. In the development phase they started with the upper band from the Krag, but made several modifications and designed a new longer bayonet with a different catch mechanism. The longer blade was to compensate for the loss of "reach" due to the shorter barrel used in the M1903 rifles. (The 24 inch barrel being a compromise between the 30 inch barrels previously used by infantry and the 22 inch barrels of the carbines for the cavalry, thus making the standard rifle suitable for issue to both branches, eliminating the need for special carbines.) Thus, the bayonet lug on the upper band adopted in 1905 remained the same as had been used on the Krag, and the Krag bayonet will fit. There does not seem to be any written indication that there was any thought to using Krag bayonets as standard issue with either the M1903 or the M1. The one notable exception being the United States Corps of Cadets at the US Military Academy as West Point. They used special chrome plated Krag bayonets with the M1 Garands right up until they were replaced by the M14s. John Spangler

# 4799 - S&W Model 1 Revolver
5/29/02
Tom Port Byron, IL.

patented 1859 1860 on cylinder. "Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass. " on top of barrel I was given this as a gift. I have been informed that it is a: first edition 2nd issue of the first revolver that S & W ever made. The cylinder must be removed from the gun to be loaded. there is no trigger guard. Could this actually be a first edition / second issue?

Answer:
Tom, The S&W Model 1 was a small .22 caliber revolver with an oval brass frame that had a small round sideplate located on the left side. The Model 1 hammer was manufactured in two sections with a hinged thumb piece that operated the cylinder stop when the hammer was drawn to the cocked position. Most Model 1 revolvers were finished with a silver-plated frame and blued barrel and cylinder. The Model 1 was Smith & Wesson's first revolver but it was not the first model handgun that they produced. The "Model 1" name came as a result of the cartridge that the revolver was designed to chamber being referred to as the Smith & Wesson Number 1 cartridge. Original advertisements for the revolver refer to it Smith & Wesson's seven shooter and not by any model number. However, soon after its introduction, the name "Model 1" was associated with the revolver to distinguish the gun from the "Number 1" cartridge. Model 1 second issue revolvers were manufactured from spring of 1860 to 1868 with total production being about 115,400. Serial numbers for second issue Model 1 second issue revolvers were a continuation of first issue numbers, they begin in the low 11,000 range and continued to about 126,400. Model 1 second issue revolvers can also recognized because of the July 5, 1859 patent date that they are stamped with which is different than first issue revolvers. Marc

# 4868 - M16A1
5/25/02
Al

Dear rifle expert I recently bought a Colt M16A1 rifle it is a semi and full automatic rifle it is a 5.56mm ,the only sign on it is the sign of the standing horse and a serial number 9499247 and nothing else ,please if possible I need to know where and when and by whom it was made so if you can help I would be grateful and if not please let me know so I can look some where else ,nice site by the way . Thank you

Answer:
Al- I assume you bought this item from a licensed Class 3 dealer and filled out the necessary transfer forms which were approved by BATF prior to your taking possession of this weapon. Any dealer selling this sort of thing knows a lot more about them than we do and should be able to tell you the date of manufacture, etc.

If you obtained this by some other method, it does not matter when it was made, as it would be illegal to have. Possession of an unregistered machine gun is a federal felony with big hard time sentences and hefty fines (something like 10 years and/or $10,000 fine) BATF prosecutes a lot of these cases, even if the owner is not using the gun in holdups or anything.. Anyone who has an unregistered machine gun should contact your closest BATF office (blue pages, US Govt., Treasury Dept., BATF) and tell them that you have this item, and want to (1) know if it is legal to keep and (2) if not, turn it in for destruction. If they confirm it is illegal then you can make arrangements for it to be turned over. You will not be compensated, but you won't be prosecuted. John Spangler

# 4845 - Gattling Gun
5/25/02
Dave

I was wondering if blueprints available for the colt model 1890 gattling gun.45-70 gov't like the one in American rifleman may 2002? It looks like it would be a fun project to build I am interested in this era of firearms and being retired I think it would be a fun challenge. Can you help me or send me in the rite direction?

Answer:
Dave- If you are a machinist with tools, time and skill, they are not that hard to make (I am told). Plans and castings are available from several sources, both in the US and Australia. (However, I am not very impressed with the Aussie product, based on their photos) Check our links page for a Gattling gun outfit, (RJ or something as I recall) I think he is mostly into the .22 caliber versions, but may have full scale as well, or there is another outfit that does full scale, and I am sure he can steer you in the right direction. Figure several thousand dollars for the materials to get started, so it is not a cheap or quick project. John Spangler

# 4828 - Spreewerke P-38 Date Of Manufacture
5/25/02
Eric, Katy, Texas

cyq, several-eagle over 88, Can you tell me the year and month of manufacture?

Answer:
Eric, wartime German P.38 serial numbers were limited to 4 digits. Walther and Mauser stamped the year of manufacture on the left hand side of the slide and serial numbers started out at the beginning of each year with serial number 1. When serial number 9999 was reached a letter suffix was added starting with "a". Spreewerke P.38 (cyq) pistols are different because they do not have a year stamping. Spreewerke serial numbers are limited to four digits and have a letter suffix but since they have no year stamping, they do not start over again at the beginning of each year. For P.38 pistols manufactured by Spreewerke, collectors use the letter suffix to determine the year of manufacture. My calculations tell me that Spreewerke P.38 pistols with "m" serial number suffixes were manufactured between January 13th and February 10th of 1944. Marc

# 4837 - Therm Matic Shotshell Former
5/22/02

Hi I was wondering if you ever herd of something like this it called a THERM MATIC SHOTSHELL FORMER it melts the wax on paper shotshell???? or something similar

Answer:
I am not familiar with that device. However, prior to the introduction of plastic shotshells in the 1960s, reloading the old paper shotshells was made easier if they were in good condition. By "ironing" them to smooth out the surface and redistribute the wax they would perform better during reloading and feed more reliably.

You have an interesting old artifact, about as useful as a buggy whip or the old "church key" beer can opener, with little collector interest or value in my opinion. John Spangler

# 4836 - Parkerize finish
5/22/02
Jimmy, USMC (ret)

I am trying to find out what "Parkerized" is? I inquired about a pistol and was told it was not "Parkerized". Could you please explain?

Answer:
Jimmy- Except for stainless steel guns introduced in the late 20th century, guns have often had the iron or steel parts treated with some sort of finish. Primarily this is to reduce the susceptibility to rust, but also for aesthetic reasons, and for military guns, as a means of reducing the chance of troops being located by reflections off polished metal surfaces.

Starting about 1873 U.S. military firearms were given a deep blue finish, and although it was officially called "browning" the color was blue. This was created on some parts by dipping them in a niter bath at a very narrow temperature range, or heating to a certain temperature and quenching in oil. Most large parts were colored by a time consuming process where items were carefully cleaned of all traces of oil, wiped with an acid solution, and placed in a high humidity area for several hours. During this time, rust would form on the iron or steel, and then it would be rinsed off, and the item would be worked over with very fine wire brushes, leaving a very thin coat of rust. This process would be repeated one or more additional times, and the final result would be a nice blue finish of iron oxide.

Although very handsome, it was inefficient, especially in the context of trying to provide enough guns for military use during World War I. In 1918 U.S. military arms began to be finished by a process developed by the Parker Rust Proofing Company of Cleveland, OH. For this, the parts to be finished were lightly sandblasted and then all traces of oil removed, and they were dipped in a heated bath of a chemical solution for about 15-30 minutes, then rinsed, and the job was done. Results over the years have varied depending on a number of factors (mainly the exact composition of the chemicals used, and if some sort of final dip in a dye or preservative was used) so Parkerize colors vary from a very light gray, to nearly black, to almost green. Most U.S. military arms made since 1918 were entirely or mostly finished with the Parkerize process, and many were subsequently refinished one or more times with the same process during overhauls, and some by civilian owners.

Collector value will be enhanced by presence of original Parkerizing, and reduced somewhat by later refinishing. If originally Parkerized and later given a nice commercial blue finish that looks pretty, the collector value is pretty much destroyed. Similarly, arms that were NOT originally Parkerized that later got Parkerized would have reduced value. Therefore it is a good ideal to learn what type of finish is correct, and get a feel for the appropriate color and texture. Sometimes certain inspector marks were applied after the finish, so you should be able to see signs of bare metal at the bottom of those markings. John Spangler

# 4834 - Thumb Trigger Rifle
5/22/02

A friend of mine is looking an old rifle with the thumb trigger, Who manufactured these rifles? What are the models are they?

Answer:
My guess is that the rifle you are asking about is the Winchester Model 99 (Thumb Trigger). Instead of the customary trigger and trigger guard on the underside of the stock, the Model 99 had a trigger which extended rearward beneath the head of the firing pin so the rifle could be fired by depressing the top of the trigger with the thumb. Winchester claimed that the thumb style trigger did not cause the shooter to throw the gun off target as often happens when a conventional trigger is pulled incorrectly (jerked instead of squeezed). Winchester manufactured approximately 75,433 Model 99 rifles from 1904 to 1923. Marc

# 4824 - Postmaster Arms
5/18/02
Denise

Hi, I've been told that at one time all Postmasters were required to carry a gun. As a current Postmaster building a collection I would like to have one to add to my antiques. Have you heard/know anything about this? Any help or lead is appreciated.

Answer:
Denise- It seems that was back in the days when "going postal" never happened. Perhaps there was a cause and effect relation ship, and not that the good guys (and gals) are disarmed, armed crooks and nuts become unstoppable.

I believe arming postmasters was prevalent in the 1920s through maybe 1950s. I do not know of specific models designated for such use, or if individuals had the option of providing their own, and/or a variety of government owned pistols were provided upon request.

I have seen documentation that a large number of Model 1917 revolvers (both Colt and S&W made) were in the hands of the Post Office Department during that period, so I assume that at least those guns would fit into the category. John Spangler

# 4802 - Hopkins and Allen Junior 932?
5/18/02
Wally, Omaha, Nebraska

I received an old gun from my Grandmother who did not know anything about it except my Grandfather bought it at a farm sale. All I can find on The rifle is Hopkins and Allen Junior 932. It is blued and a single shot. I have not been able to have anyone tell me anything about this. It is in good shape and wondering if I should get an appraisal for insurance purposes or just sell it at a gun show.

Answer:
Wally, I was unable to find any information on the Hopkins and Allen Model 932 Junior, but I was able to find information on the Model 922 Junior. Possibly you made a mistake with the model number, or possibly the two models are close enough for the following information to be of some use. The 922 Sporting Rifle was originally known as the "Junior Model" it was manufactured by Hopkins & Allen of Norwich, Connecticut from about 1890 to 1915. Total Model 922 Junior production is not known. The 922 action was a falling block type which was locked by propping the vertically-moving breech block behind the chamber with the operating lever. Some 922 rifles had rollers in the lever and the hammer to smooth operation, and others did not. It is theorized that inconsistencies between different rifles of the same model are due to the companies practice of manufacturing rifles in batches. Most Junior's have 24 or 26 inch round, part-round or full-octagon barrels with Spring-leaf and elevator rear sights and straight-wrist butt stocks though pistol grips butt stocks are also often encountered. Marc

# 4796 - Continental Arms Co. "Ladies Companion" Pepperbox
5/18/02
Nancy , Bath, Pa

Dad has a Ladies companion in the original box dated Aug 28 1866 made by Continental Arms of Norwich Conn. The box says improved revolver, 8oz, Shoots No 1 Metallic Cartridge with force and accuracy. Neat little gun, again what can you tell me about this firearm? Thanks in advance for your help

Answer:
Nancy- This is a very scarce gun. Only about 800 were made in the late 1860s by Bacon Arms Company. A few were made with brass frames that are especially desirable and valuable. Original boxes are exceptionally scarce and desirable as well. This design was patented by Charles Conversse and Samuel Hopkins, who subsequently founded what became Hopkins & Allen. I am guessing that the value is probably close to $1,000. The gun is actually .22 caliber, which in the very early days of cartridges was known as the "number 1" size cartridge. While not a real "manstopper" load with blackpowder, the .22 rimfire was a suitable choice for ladies desiring a simple and reliable self defense weapon and not needing the fuss of loading powder, ball, and percussion caps. Let us know if you decide to sell. John Spangler

# 4804 - Savage Model 1920
5/15/02
? ? ? ?

I recently acquired an unusual rifle, can you tell me about it? It is a bolt action, the receiver is obviously styled after an early Mauser, it has a knob on the end of the firing pin that resembles a Springfield, the ejector looks like it was styled after a Krag, and the bolt lock down system operates like my old 700 Rem. It appears to have had a straight (military style) bolt handle but that was altered to a sporter design to clear a scope and the rear of the receiver was altered slightly to allow for the bent bolt to clear. The serial number is on the receiver (1751) and the barrel resembles a savage 99 barrel with the markings near the receiver that say "Savage Hi-Pressure Steel", under that is .250-3000. The stock, although it is a bolt action resembles the 99 configuration with the small forend and schnabel tip. The gun was obviously carried a lot and shows the signs of being carried a lot but the bore is in good shape. It's a cute little thing and fun to shoot. Oh yes it has a tang safety that is obviously a factory design.

Answer:
It sounds like you are describing a Savage Model 1920. Savage manufactured the Model 1920 from 1920 to 1931 in .250-3000 Savage and .300 Savage calibers. The Model 1920 was a Mauser type bolt action rifle with a slightly angled back bolt to improve handling. The plain walnut stock had a pistol grip butt, a straight comb and a slender forend which tapered to a schabel tip. Post-1926 stocks were checkered and often had sling eyes. Originally Model 1920 rifles were offered with a choice of 22 or 24 inch round barrels but Savage dropped the 22 inch barrel version in 1926. Model 1920 production officially ceased in 1928 but assembly of parts on hand continued for a time after that. Marc

# 4791 - 1866 Williamson Handgun
5/15/02

Hello, I found your site and I really hope you can help us. My father is a gun dealer and collector, and is really stumped on this one. Recently, at a gun auction he purchased a very old handgun. It is dated 1866, with the company name "Williamson" on it. It is a very beautiful small handgun, about 5 in long with what we think is a walnut handle. The interesting thing about the gun is that you can either use a bullet in it, or you could pack it with powder. Have you ever seen or heard of anything like this?

Answer:
Hi- These are neat little guns made first by Moore's Patent Firearms Co and then National Firearms Co from about 1866-1870. About 10,000 made. These are a single shot piece shaped like a traditional Derringer, and used either .41 rimfire cartridges or a special auxiliary adapter for loading with loose powder, ball and percussion cap. Often found with damaged stock. or modern replacement for the auxiliary chamber, which hurt value while engraved barrels or tiger stripe maple stocks add value. This information is from Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and their Values (p. 420 in the new 8th edition). I am surprised your Dad missed it, as every dealer or collector should have at least one copy. John Spangler

# 4781 - Police Positive Six Inch
5/11/02
Peter, Cedar Hills, Utah

Inside of Cylinder Frame "Colt Police Positive .32 Police Ctg" alongside serial number I recently acquired the above mentioned pistol in mint condition. What was the approximate date of manufacture? I know it was sometime between 1900 and 1947. Also is the 6" barrel configuration common?

Answer:
Peter, Colt introduced the Police Positive in 1907, it was an improvement of their New Police model with a new "positive lock" mechanism. Colt manufactured about 200,000 Police Positive revolvers between 1907 and 1947. Colt also offered a target version of the Police Positive with a heavy frame, these are rare with less than 4000 ever being completed. The Police Positive was offered with barrel lengths of 2.5, 4, 5, and 6 inches. It has been my experience that the 6 inch versions are fairly common with the 4 inch versions being most common. Records indicate that serial number 302103 was manufactured between 1939 and 1943. Marc

# 4665 - Flobert Pistol
5/11/02
Bobby, Bostic, NC

There looks to be what is a Lion on it's hind legs holding a banner of some sort on the left side of the octagon barrel and the 59 I included in the serial number is on the same side of the barrel just in front of the hammer. I would just like to know about Flobert's handguns. This is the first one I've every seen. A friend of mine gave it to me for helping him do some work around his house. It is a single shot and ejects the cartridge when you shoot it. Any info will be appreciated.

Answer:
Bobby- We don't know (or care) much about Flobert rifles or pistols. These were mainly a circa 1890-1910 design made in Belgium for sale at really low prices. They were a very weak action and I would not shoot one with any modern ammunition. If it is flinging out fired cases at you when fired, that might be a sign that your good behavior has earned you a guardian angel for a while. However, in case your behavior slips a notch, you might end up with a serious injury, so I would stop shooting that one NOW! John Spangler

# 4667 - Stevens Tip Up
5/11/02
Will, Maysville, KY

Pat. Sep.6.1884 As I understand it, there were 15 varieties of Stevens Tip-Ups (No.1-No. 15). I have a Stevens Tip-up (follow link to see photo, http://users. ntr.net/ **Tilda** wnorris/PDRM0038. jpg ) and I am wondering, which of the varieties do I have? It is very hard to find this kind of information. I would also be curious as to what the other varieties are like. What are the various values of these guns (is one more desirable than another? )? Thanks for any help you can give. Will

Answer:
Will- You are correct that Stevens made a bewildering array of rifles and pistols using a tip up action. I have never attempted to try to figure them all out, but if I needed to do so, I would turn to two excellent reference books. First, as in just about every gun related question, I would consult Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms and Their Values. Everyone who thinks they are, or might like to be, a gun collector NEEDS to won a copy of this book. It has lots of info on the history and identification of the various models not only of Stevens, but every other U.S. maker up to about 1940. And, it has pretty good value estimates as well. For someone especially interested in Stevens, I would recommend Jay Kimmel's "Savage and Stevens Arms." It goes into more detail on minor model variations and more historical information. John Spangler

# 4829 - Omega Revolver
5/8/02
Ron, Newburgh, IN

Has the letters HW3 on swing out cylinder and some unidentifiable markings. There is a head on the top left side of the gun which resembles some ancient Greek god possibly with a wing shape on his helmet? Have had the guns for 20 years plus, is there anything you can tell me about the manufacture, age, etc. . . . thanks

Answer:
Ron, Omega was manufactured by Gerstenberger & Eberwein, of Gussenstadt W. Germany who manufactured a range of pistols which they marketed under their own name and many other names as well. Their firearms were cheap Saturday night special type revolvers, manufactured for sale in the U.S. prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 which severely curtailed the importation of this type of pistol. There are a variety of things that commonly go wrong with this type revolver, I would strongly advise you to have it checked by a competent gunsmith before attempting to fire it. Values for these revolvers are usually in the under $50.00 range. Marc

# 4846 - Authentic Scope For 1927 Winchester 52 .22lr
5/8/02
David

Am looking for the appropriate scope from the era of manufacture of this rifle. Have been told it might be a Lyman super target spot 12x to 20x, or a Unertl of same power. Is this correct? any Ideas on where to find these or other of the era you might recommend.

Answer:
David- scopes were pretty much a novelty, and an expensive one, in 1927. Smallbore rifle shooting was very much an iron sights discipline in those years. About the only widely used scope of the period you are likely to find (or recognize) would be the Winchester A5, which they made until 1928. Winchester sold Lyman their A5 design in 1928 and Lyman then tooled up to produce it as the Lyman 5A. The Lyman targetspot, Super targetspot and the Unertl scopes were not introduced until 1937, much later than 1927. Their are a few obscure Stevens brand scopes, or Malcolms or others which were around prior to 1927, but usually poorly marked and I have only seen a few over the years (if any). Nick Stroebel's "Old Rifle Scopes" would be a good reference for you to consult for further information. We may have a copy on our book page, or you can find one at a show or book dealer. John Spangler

# 4852 - Spanish Pistols
5/8/02
Charleston, S.C.

Gentlemen, I have a 44 cal. pistol that is a double-barrel, break action, side by side, double hammers, double triggers, wood carved handle, with ring tether attachment. Markings...J.L.Galef, Eibar 1925, 44 XL SHOT C?GE, Made In Spain 2117. Any idea of the value or range of value. Is this a rare firearm? Thanks for you Help.

Answer:
While not common, these are seen from time to time. However, potential buyers are even less common. Value is probably in the $50-150 range if you find someone interested. The .44 extra long shot cartridge is no longer available. While .44-40 cartridges will fit in the gun, IT IS NOT SAFE TO FIRE THEM, as they develop much higher pressures than the shot cartridge. John Spangler

# 4775 - Bagged Charges
5/4/02
Tom

I am looking for a set of inert bag charges for 6 inch gun or larger, This is for a Army base restoration project.

Answer:
Tom- Sorry, we cannot help with that one. You might ask on the forum at www.cartridgecollectors.org as there are some heavy ordnance types who hang around there.

For general visitor purposes, you can probably make a suitable display piece using white cloth (silk traditionally, but anything will work for display) You should be able to figure rough dimensions and any special handles/quilting/ignition end markings, etc from appropriate manuals or photographs or blueprints. In lieu of powder the filler could be as simple as a tin can surrounded by dacron stuff they fill pillows with (available at Wal-Mart) to fill the bag and leave it a bit squishy. John Spangler, Captain, US Navy (retired)

# 4793 - P-38 In 45 Caliber?
5/4/02
Keith Hickory Flat, Ms

p-38 serial # 7630 t cyq t in serial # is a dogleg t A friend of mine has a automatic pistol that he thinks is from the World War II era . It is a 45 cal. p-38 serial number posted above has a dogleg t and the letters cyq. I would be grateful for any information on this gun.

Answer:
Keith, "cyq" is the WW-II German ordnance code assigned to Spreewerke GmbH, Metallwarenfabrik, Berlin Spandau, Germany. Spreewerke got it's name from the company's main offices, located on the bank of the Spree River in Spandau, a suburb of Berlin. The "t" that you describe is part of the serial number, Spreewerke serial numbers are limited to four digits and have a letter suffix. Spreewerke P.38 pistols typically exhibit rough machining with visible milling marks. The pistol should be stamped with an eagle over a swastika on the right hand side of the slide and an eagle over 88 twice on the right hand side of the slide, once on the frame above the trigger, once on the right hand side of the barrel locking block and once on the left side of the barrel group. The eagle over 88 stamping is a German WW-II Heerswaffenamt inspectors mark for the Spreewerk P.38 pistol and the eagle over a swastika is a military acceptance stamp.

Standard chambering for P.38 pistols is 9MM, I have never heard one chambered in .45. Possibly you are mistaken about the caliber. If this P.38 is really chambered in .45 it is probably some sort of custom modification. Marc

# 4847 - M1903 Rifle Collectors Association?
5/4/02
Colin Melbourne Australia

Dear Sir, I am a member of the Garand Collectors Association and I am interested to know if there is a similar group for the M1903 Rifle. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Answer:
Colin- I recognize your name from the GCA classified ads, and know that you are a serious collector of U.S. martial arms. I hope that the emerging frenzy for even more stringent gun control/confiscation laws in Oz do not result in confiscation/destruction/sale of your collection. Apparently all the law abiding citizens have been obediently turning in their banned guns, while the criminals have not, and violent crime has risen dramatically. Having proven that partially disarming the good guys results in an increase in crime, is the best solution to totally disarm the good guys? Your politicians are even more stupid than ours, but ours will probably praise your plans and eventually adopt it as well.

Anyway, there is no collectors group for M1903 rifles. The closest thing is the "U.S. Martial Arms Collector and Springfield Research Service Newsletter" published by diligent researcher Frank Mallory. If not a subscriber, you should be, as well as purchaser of all the related materials he offers from his digging in the National Archives and other official records. We expect to announce a site shortly that will make his services and products available on line. You have probably already seen our site http://m1903.com which we are slowly building into a resource for collectors interested in these rifles.

At one time there was a plan to create a U.S. Martial Arms Collectors Society, but that was abandoned due to overlap with various existing groups (such as the highly respected GCA, Frank Mallory's publication, etc) and dearth of people willing to do the hard work to make something like that work. John Spangler

# 4757 - Marlin Model 29
5/1/02
Vivian, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

The only markings on the rifle are as follows: Marlin Firearm Co. NewHaven CTMarline #29Patten April 2, 1889 / August 12, 1890 / March 1, 1892 and November 29, 1904 <5"l & . r>This is a rifle that belonged to my grandfather. Just looking for any information available, history, value, etc. Thank you

Answer:
Vivian, Marlin introduced the Model 29 in 1912. It was a take-down, slide action rifle that would chamber .22 short, long or long-rifle ammunition. Magazine capacity was 15 - .22 short, 12 - .22 long or 11 - .22 long-rifle cartridges. Barrel length was 23 inches, original metal finish was blue and the buttstock and forend were made of black walnut. Except for one or two small differences, the Model 29 was the same as Marlin's earlier Model 20 rifle. Marlin collectors generally agree that the Model 29, was introduced as a way for Marlin to add another model to their product line by making only basic changes to an existing model. When Marlin first introduced the 29 it was listed in their catalogs at $11.50, in 1917 when the model was discontinued, retail price was about $17.00. The blue book lists current values for model 29 rifles between about $60.00 and $300 depending on condition. Marc

# 4659 - Colt .41 RF Derringer
5/1/02
Kennon, Juliette Ga. 31046

The only marks are -COLT- on the top of the brl, and .41 CAL on the right side. This is a single shot derringer with an overall length of 5 inches. The barrel breaks open to the side and appears to have been nickel plated at one time. The barrel is steel but the frame looks to be bronze. This used to belong to my grandmother and I would just like any information you can give me. Thanks, Kennon

Answer:
Kennon- Sounds like you have one of Colt's "Third Model Derringers" which were made from 1879 to about 1912, with a total production of about 48,000. These had bronze frames, but usually were nickel or silver plated. The barrels were either blued or nickel-plated. Collectors have discovered that there are two minor variations with serial numbers under 2,000 and pay a premium for those, but the common versions seem to run about $225 in NRA antique good to $500 in NRA antique fine. These were small, easily concealed weapons suitable for a young (or old) lady to protect their virtue or valuables from low life scum. Many were carried in handbags or stuck next to the bed. Of course, many men also carried them, hopefully in pockets, not handbags. While the .41 rimfire round is pretty puny, it is lethal enough to discourage further debate.

This is the "third model" because Colt made two earlier models circa 1870-1890. (We are not going to tell you what they are called- your imagination will figure that out.) They were all steel, and essentially copies of the gun made by the National Arms Co. From about 1871 to 1879 Colt's line also offered two small revolvers which used the .41 rimfire cartridge, for similar uses. Although not officially considered "derringers" they could fit into the same collecting theme. In fact, a collection of guns from all makers firing the .41 rimfire would be a pretty interesting challenge. John Spangler

# 4660 - Winchester Model 12 U.S. & Flaming Bomb
5/1/02
Shane Simmesport La

U. S. flaming cannon If my information is correct I would like to know about when the gun was manufactured and if I have stumbled across something of value?

Answer:
Shane- During WW2 (1941-45) some 80,542 Model 12 shotguns were procured for military use. Nearly all were marked at the factory with the U.S. and flaming bomb on the right side of the receiver. And some 39,176 Model 97 shotguns were also procured, and most marked on the left side of the receiver. (Exceptions were mainly those procured early in the war from dealer inventory and thus not marked at the factory.) Both models were procured with short barrels as riot guns, short barrels with handguard and bayonet lug as "trench guns" (a collector term, not official); and with longer barrels for use in trap and skeet shooting. Value wise, the trench guns command high to ridiculous prices, the riots are expensive, and the trainers are pretty reasonable, reflecting the relative amount of collector interest in them. Of course condition is a big factor too.

Before some ignorant liberal starts hollering about wasted military spending on trap and skeet shooting, we need to explain why this was done. Unlike today when the total U.S. military aircraft inventory is probably less 5,000, during WW2 there were tens of thousands of bombers, and tens of thousands of fighters. Gunners and pilots (many of them 19 to 21 year old men who had never been in an airplane of any type prior to being drafted) had to be taught how to shoot down moving targets. While classroom lessons on physics and ballistics might be appealing to some, the most effective way to force them to conquer the challenges was to give them a shotgun and let them try to hit moving targets. Then, to make it more realistic, try to hit a moving target while riding in the back of a truck. (I know, your neighbor Bubba got his last deer from 800 yards, at night, shooting out of the back of a truck speeding at 90 MPH, but the deer was not about to shoot back at him like some Jap or Kraut fighter.) Thus the long barreled training guns are important reminders of the tremendous breadth of action which was necessary to win WW2.

Many of the US marked shotguns on the market today (especially Model 12s, it seems) are actually short barrel riot or trench models which had the barrels replaced after the war to make them sell better to hunters. Sometimes the whole barrel was replaced, and other times they added a big long Cutts compensator and choke device. While we may view this a s screwing up a collectible treasure, they viewed it as a way to get a good deal on a hunting gun, and besides, no one wanted to collect those army surplus guns (then). Before dismissing all military shotguns with short barrels and Cutts attachments as butchery, remember that some Remington Model 11s were delivered that way. John Spangler